2 Thessalonians 2:3b

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3 Let [exapatao] no [me] man [tis] deceive [exapatao] you [humas] by [kata] any [medeis] means: [tropos] for [hoti] that day shall not come, except [ean me] there come [erchomai] a falling away [apostasia] first, [proton] and [kai] that man [anthropos] of sin [hamartia] be revealed, [apokalupto] the son [huios] of perdition; [apoleia] KJV-Interlinear

3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, NASB

I am going to title this study, Conversation with Apostasy

Just during this past week, I had a conversation online with several people. Originally it began with three individuals, but after I excused myself from the conversation, a chorus of people chimed in and the conversation deteriorated into a spattering of mockery, ridicule and then degenerate cursing.

I will add some of my observations from this conversation.

First, all of these people were young. From their pictures they all seemed to be in their late teens or early to mid twenties. I did not include their pictures in this study. So, being young I do not believe that they possess very much life experience or wisdom. From their typing, they appear to spend their time on the internet.

They are not stupid people, and they all have knowledge of the Bible. They cite scientific approach, but that appears to be only the use of words without substance. And their words imply anger.

These people were from several locations around the world.

I changed their names to read as party #1, party #2, etc, and identified myself as John, of course.

I removed the links to several internet addresses which were listed. Not addresses that you would take your children to. And I abbreviated some of the very bad language, which should be obvious. Hope I got all of the words.

Otherwise, the text of the conversation has not been edited or changed.

The whole point of this study is to show you just how or what people think, and how it is related to our current study.

The conversation was entered into by myself, quite by accident, but I was very surprised at its results.

You should be able to see the anger in their words, but the real question here is, If they do not believe in God, then why go online and ask the questions, unless they simply wanted to bait someone into their own private debate?

Some folks are not very street smart or brave, when out in life, but when they can hide behind a computer and an internet shield, then their courage grows way off the chart.

In short, there was a great deal of rhetoric, but very little substance, and that is how spiritually dysfunctional people operate. They are impressed with their own empty words and believe in the emptiness of their own thoughts, but they reject truth even in its simplest form.

If this is any example of what the next generation is going to be like, then what of the next following generation and then the generation after that. Would this be an example of the great apostasy which is to come, as stated by Paul?

I wanted to let you read their words, so you could see into the minds of apostate people, their lack of argument, their twisting of words, their mockery, their defiance and how they cling to their beliefs.

And you will see at the end, how the chorus of others who did not participate, will chime in with nothing but ridicule and degenerate comments. I call these folks the choir of fools, representing the rest of the world. This is what we can expect in our, and possibly the next generations, future.

Beginning of the entire conversation.

PARTY #1

Can anyone prove there is a god or an afterlife or anything like this statement -

"Noah's Ark, or some sort of large, huge, ark-like, with the exactly right measurements, wooden, boat (or Noah's Ark) has been spotted on Mount Ararat by people, the U.S. government, and the military."

Much simpler: that entire sentence is made up.

PARTY #2

not the best points but keep trying,

this is such a challenge to prove God's existence, you can't use the bible or any theological teachings and the burden of proof is on us

and "you just got to have faith isn't realy a viable argument"

the only thing i can say is (and i know this is the stupidest argument I've presented so far and is exactly some of the circular logic that your talkin about ; i really just want to see how you'll respond to it)

there is no proof God doesn't exist either.

John

I would like to offer this response to your question. There are only three systems of perception - rationalism, empiricism, and faith. By these three and some combination of them, all that can be learned, is learned.

The first two deal with the tangible world while the last deals with the non-tangible (spiritual world).

Since the spiritual side of life cannot be accessed by the tangible side, then we have to lean on our logic and objectivity in order to arrive at a conclusion with regard to the spiritual side of life.

So we turn to history and common sense to discover the facts behind religion, faith, and the existence of everything around us.

If one is logical and objective, then there can be only one conclusion that is correct, and that is that the world around us is simply too complex to have come into existence without some form of help.

Of course you can rationalize that it was all an accident, but then you have to look to historical records, and the Bible has a phenomenal history, and verifiable history to support its argument.

When compared with other religions, then the Christianity stands out in that all other religions reject Jesus Christ, that means that your focus should be on Christianity in your search for answers.

Of course you can reject all of this, but when it all comes right down to it, can anyone really bet their entire existence on an idea that nothing exists after this life? That is a very big gamble.

If nothing exists after this life, then of what value are any of us now? Everything would become relative and pointless if there was nothing to look to after this life. And that leaves us with one last point. We will all leave this life one day, then what?

What would you bet for a concept of nothingness that you could not prove, when there are huge volumes of evidence suggesting otherwise?

PARTY #3

John, "If one is logical and objective, then there can be only one conclusion that is correct, and that is that the world around us is simply too complex to have come into existence without some form of help."

There is absolutely nothing logical about that statement. It is ENTIRELY supposition based upon personal feeling. Got anything more concrete?

"Of course you can rationalize that it was all an accident, but then you have to look to historical records, and the Bible has a phenomenal history, and verifiable history to support its argument."

Yes, you look at historical records, the Bible is one of them, but only ONE SMALL piece, compared to the innumerable other historical records, both created by humans and by nature . . . As for everything else in that statement, it's once again supposition.

"When compared with other religions, then the Christianity stands out in that all other religions reject Jesus Christ, that means that your focus should be on Christianity in your search for answers."

Wait, so Christianity is the only correct religion because other religions don't believe in Jesus Christ? That's circular logic, egotistical as hell, and stereotypically Christian to say. Nice job.

"Of course you can reject all of this, but when it all comes right down to it, can anyone really bet their entire existence on an idea that nothng exists after this life? That is a very big gamble."

It's not if you don't stand to lose or gain anything in the first place. What will be will be, and when you die, you die . . . so no matter what book you want to thump, you'll be dead eventually, the same as the rest, and so you'll lose everything and gain nothing.

"If nothing exists after this life, then of what value are any of us now?"

So your life now is only valuable as determined by the essence of an afterlife? What exactly do you do again? You're saying that if it wasn't for an afterlife, you'd just off yourself? Really?

"We will all leave this life one day, then what?"

Nothing. That's the definition of DEATH. The ceasing of all life.

"What would you bet for a concept of nothingness that you could not prove, when there are huge volumes of evidence suggesting otherwise?"

A large book full of fairy tale stories is hardly "volumes of evidence".

John

Well, objectivity has to replace ridicule that lacks research. You seem to reject everything without even the fairest of tests. Like I said before, to reject even the remotest of possibilities is a fools bet, especially when the fool lacks any proof otherwise. You seem to reject Christianity for lack of proof (which you refuse to explore), but embrace a no hereafter view likewise without proof.

PARTY #3

That's it, John? So after I reject your "evidence" of God using very logical processes all you can come up with is "you refuse to see the truth"?

Typical.

John

Don't think that I said that. You seem to reject any proof of God, but you seem to accept the idea that there is no afterlife likewise without proof. Your rational seems contradictory to me. And even more dangerous for you, since if you are wrong, then you lose, and if you were right, you lose as well.

PARTY #3

John, Incorrect, once again. I follow the scientific process; there is no evidence of an afterlife, therefore, there isn't one until it can be proven by scientific process to be highly likely. You want to prove, or at least, highly suggest there is one? Find a way to conduct experiments on it, to prove by observation, facts, or something else, that such a plane of existence is real. Otherwise, shut up with the wild imaginings.

Oh, and John? I lose nothing and gain nothing if I'm right. This isn't some game of poker or a television show. For me, there is nothing at stake here. For you, there is. Your way of thinking, your way of life, your version of reality. Plus, you lay a lot of betting into there being an afterlife. But since there isn't one, I'd say that if anyone "loses" here, it would be you. I just get faced with the reality I already knew and accepted.

PARTY #1

"you seem to accept the idea that there is no afterlife likewise without proof."

But there IS proof:
Remember your life before you were born? that is the same place you go after you die.
Ever been unconscious? Asleep? Where does your "soul" go when your brain is not awake?
After 8 hours of dreamless sleep or deep anesthesia, you just wake up with a memory gap.
Death is a memory gap that never ends.

"since if you are wrong, then you lose, and if you were right, you lose as well."

If you don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, you will go to Super Hell, which is much worse than regular hell. Can you afford to bet that the FSM doesn't exist?
Or what if god punishes believers by sending them to hell?


For future reference: Pascal's Wager is for RETARDED PEOPLE.

PARTY #2

pastafarian, lol [note insert here - pastafarian is someone who believes in the flying spaghetti monster]

John

I think that most folks will not take such a drastic approach in rejecting the possibility of an afterlife. Your life here in this life amounts to not much more than a few decades give or take. After this life ends, there is all of eternity.

Yours is a big gamble.

I go back to my original rational. The spiritual life cannot be accessed from this life, therefore if there is any, even the slightest of possibilities that it does exist, then one is better off if he does tangible research to discover the truths of faith. Bible study is the best approach, because it is truth.

Not truth taken by blind faith, but truth determined by reasonable and objective research.

You seem to enjoy twisting my words, but anyone else reading these words, I hope, will see the emptiness of your reasoning.

Rather than continuing in circles, I will close my part of this discussion and allow whomever is reading, to make up their own mind. I write a daily bible study and have for many years. It is not there to convince or force those who refuse to be convinced, but it is there to allow folks to make up their own minds. You are welcome to read the studies at http://www.DailyBibleStudy.Org or ignore them altogether.

But I hope one day that life will serve you up something that causes you to doubt your present ideas and at least investigate (again objectively) the possibilities.

PARTY #4

wanna macbook air?!?!?!?
Reg now! Place your photo and... take it!!!
[internet link]
Good Luck ;)

PARTY #1

humans are a type of monkey living on the surface of this planet, and that's that.

your emotional pleas are useless. There is no "afterlife", no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.

there is no "gamble". we know for a fact what happens to people when they die.

PARTY #3

John, Just because you desperately want, no, NEED the idea of an afterlife doesn't mean I have to buy into your little fantasy. Don't be irritated at me because you can't tolerate the idea that maybe, just maybe, reality is only what you see. That life is just what it is: a never-ending scramble for limited resources in order to heighten the chances of reproduction. And that's it. When you die, the electrical sparks bouncing between neurons in your brain dissipate and you are gone. That's it. Nothing more. I don't need anything more. I'll take account for my actions here in this life, because I know that this is all you get. This one chance. You can't handle the idea of you ACTUALLY dying? That's too bad, but it doesn't mean you get to be indignant with the people who accept a more enlightened view of reality.

"Yours is a big gamble."

Nope. Because once again, I say to you, I have nothing at stake. I've accepted that I die. And besides, even if there WAS an afterlife, that means to me that when I die, it's that much more special to me, thta much more of a surprise. So if you really want to press the issue, I guess I'm the one who benefits in this "gamble" of yours.

"I go back to my original rational. The spiritual life cannot be accessed from this life, therefore if there is any, even the slightest of possibilities that it does exist, then one is better off if he does tangible research to discover the truths of faith. Bible study is the best approach, because it is truth."

Wow. That's a pretty big piece of shit you pulled out of your ass there. I mean, that is essentially the most fact-less, most speculative, most presumptive piece of garbage I've seen on here in a while. Congratulations. You managed to say absolutely nothing that is actually verifiable.

"Not truth taken by blind faith, but truth determined by reasonable and objective research."

Exactly. Science is the answer to many things. So why haven't you actually offered anything based in logic or science to support your faith yet? So far I've seen nothing but self-righteous indignation and supposition.

"You seen to enjoy twisting my words, but anyone else reading these words, I hope, will see the emptiness of your reasoning."

If they do, I feel sorry for them . . . that they are as empty and without logical faculties as you are.

"But I hope one day that life will serve you up something that causes you to doubt your present ideas and at least investigate (again objectively) the possibilities."

Eh, probably not going to happen. Just way too many FACTS and trUTHS in the world against your SUPPOSITIONS and EMPTY CIRCULAR LOGIC.

PARTY #5

Hey guys. i'm from Ukraine and i need your help :)
Register by link [internet link cited] please.
Then you'll receive sms with activation code.
Thanks.

PARTY #6

[internet link]

heres your proof

PARTY #7

I'll give you 3, Australia,Beer & [Famous Person]!

AH

heh, many [Famous Person] stuff: [internet link] I think he is the best of all over the world

PARTY #8

F off, Massa.

PARTY #9

how do you know it's him?

PARTY #8

God told me... God hates Massa. It's true

PARTY #9

lol....you have a direct correspodence? mine's usually a monologue...rarely a dialogue....

PARTY #10

well we better hurry and find a new messia to follow we only have approx 137 years left if that till the sun ( or son ) passes through the fishes constilation into the water pitcher carrier Aquarius. The 2150 year passing into the twelve ( disciples, star signs ) has been proven through history to mark the transfer of new religion or new Kings and new rule. Jesus's deciples asked where the next passover would be after he was gone he told them to follow the man with a water pitcher into his house and there would be found. The star transfer of the sun goes anti clockwize from the ancient sun worshipers who started our now christian religion over 10000 years ago and plotted the transfer every 2150 years or so, it is the suns allignment with the star signs. The sun gives life, walks on water, brings floods, resurects and picses the two fishes has fed the masses from the conception of the bible. If you christians dont believe me just research its a secret to the christian religion only the highest are privilaged to know and comprehend, we will never be given the truth through our higher authority. Those who believe truth in authority and not truth as authority will always be blind. The sun gives sight every day or every six months in some parts of the earth. Horus was born of the virgin isis lived as a minister was inducted at twelve and was crucified then resurected 3 days later. look at when the sun is at its lowest eb each year and for how long, 3 days as the eye percieves and then it rises on the 25th in allignment with the eastern star and the three kings ( three wize men that came from the east ) the three kings are orions belt. just do some homework if you want to seek the truth and stop following in the dark, here is some clues to start the journey. He was risen back to his maker and given authority over the heavens and the earth, the sun has authority over the earth and heavens ( the sky ). Please do some research and let us share what we find. Masonic claims right over the building of solomons temple and that the king was a master. How much do you think they own of the past or are they owned by the origional story, the origins hold the power not the future which claims ownership. It is all our knowledge, our descendants, our life, no group or authority can have our life, decide what we can learn, find our true roots, dont let anyone take the ancient shared privialage by wrapping you up with disinformation and the following of blindness, share and go in peace.

PARTY #8

Yes, I do. God is actually very anti-religion

PARTY #11

F THE BIBLE AND F EVERY C IN HERE TOO

PARTY #12

And during this bible study, we will introduce the book of Dracula written down by Bram Stoker as it was spoken to him by "god."

So believe everything you read in Dracula because it too is the word of "god."

Text of this study is located at
Jonathon Harker's (Son of "god") Journal 1:1

And next week, I'll bring in another fictional book that is gentler on the primitive christian mind.

PARTY #3

* ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz -- Uh, what? Somebody say something? Uh . . . ZZZZZZZZZZZ*

PARTY #13

This is as bafeling as alien anal probeing. Its only one book right, havent scientists finished there study yet?

End of the entire conversation.

If you made it this far through the entire conversation, then you have seen into the minds of people who are brave when they do not expect any repercussions to their beliefs. And odd as it may seem, neither you, nor I, nor even God forced them into their way of thinking. They did it all themselves.

And, both you and I have had and will continue to have the opportunity to see history unfold, just as Paul described it, from nearly 2000 years ago. And those individuals who reject truth, are in fact fulfilling a historical trend that was foreseen long ago.

And more than that, they are going to be the primary instrument for bringing in history s most evil person, at some point in the future.

We have people in our time, pushing prayers, pushing government programs, pushing world peace, pushing some program or another, in order to save this world, but our worst enemy is not programs, or environment, or governments, but the lack of spiritual content in the soul of individuals.

For it is they who become the formation of evil, and evil which advances world destruction.

You can pick up all of the trash you can find, but if you do not change the thinking of people, then your efforts will accomplish nothing.

Now is the time to post a prayer.